Rapid Fire!

Posted by Member ecocd on 4/17/13 11:10 AM #1
Posts: 1059

Rapid Fire is getting a 60% damage boost in the next patch and a 40% decrease in channeling cost which should make it substantially more viable in Inferno. In my opinion, only Multishot approaches the fun of machine gun pew-pew-pew (as Flux put it). Who doesn't love using the skill? With the damage buff, I think a build that's focused on using Rapid Fire will be a serious Elite killer to be reckoned with. I don't, however, think there are enough complementary skills to keep up with the new monster density changes. We'll see. It's kind of funny that the monster density changes which hurt Rapid Fire will be coming in at that same time as the skill buff to Rapid Fire.

I did 5 minutes of testing with 1.0.7 and discovered 1 important fact. Holy crap, it sucks down Hatred like crazy at 2.87 aps which is low-to-moderate aps for most 1H XBow DHs. Even with the 40% reduction in channeling costs, it's going to be completely impractical to use a 1H Xbow with Rapid Fire so we're instead looking at 2H XBows and 2H Bows. Like practically everything with DHs, a Manticore is going to prove the best option. I hate Manticores. Depending upon the rest of your gear, yellow weapons may prove viable options since they don't come with a static IAS mod like Manticore and Windforce (but I'm really tempted by that Knockback effect).

In theory, a good aps to shoot for will be around 1.5 aps. That should work out to a 9 Hatred / second channel cost. Between Bat, Gear and Templar (in single-player), a DH can pull up a max of 3 + 1.33*3 + 1 = 8 Hatred / second (7 in multiplayer). Realistic gear would probably make that around 7.5 (6.5 multi) Hatred / second. That leaves us with using 1.5 (2.5) Hatred / second. With a base pool of 100 Hatred, that means a continuous stream for 53 (32) seconds including initial 20 Hatred cost. If you commit 100% to Rapid Fire with Preparation-Punishment, even a low-budget DH will be able to pull off infinite Rapid Fire in multiplayer. In multiplayer, Vengeance will trigger off of health globes anyone picks up which will always keep your Hatred Bulb filled up.
Posted by Member ecocd on 4/17/13 11:10 AM #2
Posts: 1059


Since Rapid Fire is going to be our main damage skill, it's always in our best interest to have it up as long as possible. From a gear perspective, this means we need to focus on keeping an aps cap in that 1.5 range and put a particular emphasis on CC/CD. For a Manticore, that means trying to keep the IAS on your other gear around 25%. For a Windforce, you're going looking for as little IAS as possible since it's base aps is 1.55.

There's no debate about using a DML quiver and that comes between 10-20% IAS. Paradoxically, you'll probably want to keep it below 17% IAS. I think Nat's Cloak and Nat's Boots are no-brainers (Hatred Regen and +6-8% CC on Rapid Fire). High Dex crafted Shoulders and Dex/CC bracers are clearly the best options. The rest of the equipment seems to be a bit up in the air.

The belt decision depends on your pants. The CD on Witching Hour is almost impossible to pass up which will fill out your IAS requirement with a Manticore. Witching Hour can be coupled with Blackthorne's Pants (survivability), Rare Pants or Depth Diggers (MF). If you have a beloved Inna's Pants/Inna's Belt combo, you also fill out your IAS requirement while gaining 12% MS. If you're running Windforce you can't afford the IAS on WH or Inna's Pants so you're looking at Blackthorne's Belt or a yellow belt.

I think you're going to need AR from your Helm and Gloves slots so you're looking at primarily rare helms and gloves there. A CC Nat's Helm gives you the Dex Set bonus (with boots and cloak) so if you can afford CC/AR then more power to you. An unconvential option would be Dex/Vit IK helm & Dex/Vit/CD IK gloves. You'll get huge Armor bonuses from the static Strength mods on each, 10% melee reduction (to go with 6% on your boots), 10-12% Life, but you're limited to only 60 AR from the 2-piece IK set bonus. Tasker and Theo have static IAS so they're out.

You're likely to need LoH from your Amulet, but Blackthorne's Amulet is out due to its static IAS so you're going yellow here, too, looking for Dex/CC/CD/high LoH. If you have LoH on your weapon or a combination of Blackthorne's Pants and Ring LoH, you can probably get away with just a Dex/CC/CD amulet.

Nat's Reflection ring is out for its inherent IAS so your non-Hellfire ring slot can round out whatever you need from Dex, CC, CD, AR, Vit, LoH. Without IAS on the ring, you should be able to get something affordable that's still very helpful.

It seems like it's going to be very hard to find Vitality on most of this equipment, so look for any opportunity to pick it up where you can (e.g., Blackthorne's 2-piece bonus for Windforce users).

The proc rate on Rapid Fire is a paltry 16% so it won't be triggering Night Stalker or Crowd Control effect consistently. It also means, you may need quite a lot of LoH. Then again, you're firing off something like 15 bolts/second with a freaking Manticore, so who knows?

I'm not sure how much it makes sense to invest in a Rapid Fire SoJ. A cold SoJ with CC on Rapid Fire seems like a really great fit for a build built to destroy elites, but it also feels like the build is going to need the non-Hellfire ring slot to cover the weaknesses in the rest of the gear.
Posted by Member ecocd on 4/17/13 11:12 AM #3
Posts: 1059


As far as skills go, there are far more good skills than skill slots. Bat and Rapid Fire are absolutely necessary. The build also requires a Hatred generator since you won't be picking up Vengeance Health Gloves to keep ypu your Hatred so you're already down to only 3 skill slots. Bola Shot could be a good option for dealing with mobs. Hungering Arrow is high dps. Entangling Arrow keeps the baddies away. Evasive Fire is great for mobs and fantastic for kiting if necessary

-Strafe benefits from exactly the same gear set as Rapid Fire so it would serve well for mobs
-Sentries are a great source of damage for single targets, but we don't really need that with Rapid Fire already serving that purpose
-Spike Trap is still the highest damage/Hatred skill in the game, but is also at its most effective against a single or small group of targets (besides, you won't have enough Hatred to drop a set of them down)
-Smokescreen is preferred over Vault since you can continue to fire while popping a SS which prevents the need to repay the initial Hatred cost of Rapid Fire
-Gloom is a tasty skill for every DH build
-Caltrops will be great for keeping baddies away from you while you pepper them
-Preparation either gives you life or keeps up your Hatred
-Fan of Knives has great damage and a slowing effect, but that cooldown is killer
-Chakram ... HA HA HA HA HA just kidding. Chakram is always terrible

Passive skill options are actually quite poor for this build as a lot of the common skills are sub-optimal for this build. It's not a heavy Disipline user so Perfectionist would be underutilized and Night Stalker is wasted. The build isn't about moving around so Vengeance is underutilized and Tactical Advantage is pointless. Sharpshooter is pointless for obvious reasons. That isn't to say any of them are bad, but you're only using Perfectionist for the 10% defensive buff and not the 10% Discipline reduction. Vengeance is great for refilling Hatred once a battle is over, but won't help you during the battle.

The only passive skill I see as being completely utilized is Archery and the rest are situational. If you're pumping out cold damage thanks to black weapon and cold SoJ and using either Web Shot or Fire Support runes, Cull the Weak is a no-brainer since it's straight up 15% damage buff on Rapid Fire and Strafe. Steady Aim would be great for multiplayer, but I suspect it won't often be active in single player. Ballistics if you load up on rocket skills maybe (no, not really. Plz make this 100% or 200% Blizz, thx).

This is what drives me nuts about Diablo 3's setup for build design. Even rapid Fire builds could have two different sets of gear. If you go Windforce, you need a 10% IAs DML, can't use Witching Hour, no Inna's Pants and get fantastic synergy between a cold SoJ with Cull the Weak and the knockback effect. If you go black damage 2H Xbow, you get the same cold SoJ / Cull the weak synergy, but loose the chilled/Knockback synergy. You want a Witching Hour, high IAS DML and one other source of IAS. If you go Manticore, the cold SoJ loses most of its appeal and you're looking for a 15-17% IAS DML. If you want to try all of them, you're storing at least 8 equipment slots until you decide on one you like. Oh, and that gear changes for multiplayer. Somehow we only get 3 stash pages? Wtf, Blizzard?

Sooooo, yeah. That's a lot of text.
Posted by Member douvinsky on 4/17/13 04:00 PM #4
Posts: 1445

@ecocd

You are an elite with Waller and Text affixes!

I do enjoy the machine gun pew pew pew. It was the skill my DH used at hardcore in levelling up to NM Butcher at MP10. Nothing beats the rattling of machine while the bullets pierce through those swarm of zerglings like mobs who rush at you, then you found out that you are nearly empty on hatred and you hope they die before your machine gun run out of bullets!
Posted by Member ecocd on 4/17/13 05:11 PM #5
Posts: 1059

I just tested it live on the PTR and the display says it's the new rapid fire, but the actual results say it's the old one. It's already posted by a dozen people in the official forums. So sad. Will try again later.
Posted by Member Khan on 4/17/13 05:51 PM #6
Posts: 1195

Tried on Ghom and Azmodan MP5 in the live game. My intent was to try to see if I can keep my Hatred tank from emptying.

My passives were:

Vengeance
Numbing Traps
Archery

My actives were:

Companion/Bat - 3 Hatred/second
Marked for Death/Mortal Enemy - 3 Hatred generated when attacking marked target
Shadow Power/Night Bane - 3 Hatred/second
Rapid Fire/Fire Support
Sentry/Spitfire
Grenades/Cluster Grenades


With my current gear, both were easily taken down and my Hatred did empty out at least twice before I had to resort to grenades.

Posted by Member douvinsky on 4/17/13 06:27 PM #7
Posts: 1445

Posted by Khan at 04/17/2013 05:51 PM

Tried on Ghom and Azmodan MP5 in the live game. My intent was to try to see if I can keep my Hatred tank from emptying.

My passives were:

Vengeance
Numbing Traps
Archery

My actives were:

Companion/Bat - 3 Hatred/second
Marked for Death/Mortal Enemy - 3 Hatred generated when attacking marked target
Shadow Power/Night Bane - 3 Hatred/second
Rapid Fire/Fire Support
Sentry/Spitfire
Grenades/Cluster Grenades


With my current gear, both were easily taken down and my Hatred did empty out at least twice before I had to resort to grenades.



I assume you are using Templar's Inspire as well?
Posted by Member Khan on 4/17/13 06:54 PM #8
Posts: 1195

@douvinsky Yup! I've also got the following Hatred generators:

Windforce - 1.23/second
Dead Man's Legacy - 1.18/second

From my calculations, I'm generating 11.41 Hatred/second. I think I'll go look for a cloak with some hatred regen to help more. At 160k DPS, I don't think I'm hitting hard enough for higher MP's yet.
Posted by Member ecocd on 4/17/13 06:55 PM #9
Posts: 1059

I completely missed Shadow Power/Night Bane. Anyway, the math is completely straightforward so you can work out how fast it will take to empty your tank.

The channeling numbers are based on 1.0 aps. Since it only takes a Quiver and Witching Hour to hit 1.5 aps with a Manticore, you're looking at 15 Hatred / second under the current system. Under the new channeling, it will be a much more tenable 9 Hatred / second.

My numbers above actually didn't take into account the inherent 4 Hatred/second. If you get 1.3 Hatred on the DML and 3 from the bat, you already have 8.3 Hatred regen / second which is plenty to support a 1.5 aps Rapid Fire.

A 1.55 aps Windforce and 10% IAS DML you'll be around 1.7 aps --> 10.2 Hatred cost / second. Windforce and DML inherently come with Hatred regen so with the Bat, you're at a sustainable 9.6 Hatred regen / second. Add an 8% WH moves you up to 1.8 aps --> 10.8 Hatred cost / second so you might need to pick up some Hatred regeneration on your cloak.

I'm definitely thinking about picking up a Windforce and a 10% IAS Rapid Fire CC DML right now...
Posted by Member Khan on 4/17/13 07:27 PM #10
Posts: 1195

@ecocd Windforce also has lifesteal sometimes so that addresses some issues of survival. Since its a black damage weapon, unlike the Manti, it opens up all kinds of possibilities for additional damage.
Posted by Member eastdragon42 on 4/18/13 01:46 AM #11
Posts: 413

@ecocd: Very well-written post & analysis on Rapid Fire, which was one of my favorite skills while leveling my DH to 60. Maybe after the new patch goes into effect, I'll have to re-visit using that skill again...! ;-)
Posted by Member ecocd on 4/18/13 07:53 AM #12
Posts: 1059

I have done some further testing on 1.0.7 and I'm further discouraged. Windforce knockback effect even at 50% with 1.74 aps doesn't proc enough to be useful on elites. With a tiny 0.16 proc coefficient, it's only going to proc, on average, 1 out of every 12 shots which isn't nearly enough to keep 3 blues at bay.

The chill effect of a SoJ is reduced from 30% on Normal to around 6% on inferno Elites so it's entirely worthless for movement speed reduction; the elite damage, however, is still awesome. While I forgot to turn on Cull the Weak, I don't think even a 15% bump in damage makes up the difference between cold Windforce and a reasonable Manticore. Windforce can't roll with crit damage and a socket, because it only gets 1 Magical property. But hey, at least it looks totally bad ass.

This is one build where I shouldn't be bitter about using the Manticore, because 2H XBows are pretty much tailor-made for this build. I guess I'm just a little sick of using Manticore for nearly every build (Sentry DHs are free from the Manticore tyranny).

Hmmm, maybe four Windforce Rapid Fire DHs could keep elite packs at bay. They should be able to collectively put up 5-6 knockbacks / second. How hilarious would it be to have 8 Sentries and 4 Rapid Fire streams going at once? I so want this to happen. Or how about 3 Windforce Rapid Fire DHs and 1 Azurewrath Grenade launcher? Or 4 Azurewrath Grenade launchers! Muah ha ha ha ha.

Is it a bad thing that I'm moving closer and closer towards becoming the Diablo 3 Mad Scientist?
Posted by Member Khan on 4/18/13 08:12 AM #13
Posts: 1195

@ecocd I think DH's were meant to hunt in packs without other classes in the way.
Posted by Member ecocd on 4/19/13 08:22 AM #14
Posts: 1059

Pew Pew Pew! I only have Hatred Regen on my Bat, Templar and Quiver and it's easily enough to keep up Rapid Fire for a looooong time with a 1.5 aps Manticore. Even the Windforce is easy to keep up at 1.74 aps (but the knockback is still crap so Manticore is still the way to go). I'm wondering with hatred regen on my cloak if I could even run a 1H XBow.

Anyway, get out your Dex/CC/CD gear and give it a try. It's pretty awesome.
Posted by Member Khan on 4/19/13 08:41 AM #15
Posts: 1195

I think I've got the gear for it. I'll see. I dumped most of my non-IAS gear...
Posted by Member collect3825 on 5/13/13 12:12 PM #16
Posts: 11

Started running around with:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#Rcgdhk!fXe!ZcabZc

Probably one of the best changes we've had to the DH class.
Posted by Member ecocd on 5/13/13 12:28 PM #17
Posts: 1059

@collect3825 How do you like Bombardment? I haven't quite been able to get it to work for me, but I use it mostly against Uniques and Elite Packs. I hadn't considered Valley of Death at all. Can you get monsters to stand still long enough to make Valley of Death useful? Do you wear a lot of Hatred Regen gear so you don't have to run a Hatred Generator skill?
Posted by Member collect3825 on 5/14/13 06:33 AM #18
Posts: 11

@ecocd I've been running around with Companion - Bat and Companion and Shadow Power - Night Bane which gets you the 6 hatred a second you need (still up in the air whether SP rune gets snapshoted with RF). I also have Hatred regen on my Dead Mans and Nat Chest which are fairly cheap.

I find myself running into a new area, drop a turret for the damage reduction, pop SP, and spam RF until everything on the screen is dead. Valley of Death I use for Elites once they settle down around a centralized spot, with the new grouping bonuses (and hopefully a cm wizard) this is becomes much easier.
Posted by Member eastdragon42 on 7/29/13 07:44 PM #19
Posts: 413

Finally got around to re-visiting this build & am using Rapid Fire - Bombardment. Must say, it's definitely a lot of fun! I have 1.68 APS and w/ Templar, Bat, & DML, my Hatred regeneration is sitting at 9.31/sec; throw in Shadow Power - Night Bane, and that jumps up to 12.31, which means my Hatred bubble basically doesn't drop at all! And with Perfectionist, Night Stalker (51% CC), and 69 Discipline from Nats Cloak, DML, & Nats set bonus, I can pretty much keep Shadow Power up throughout almost any fight (still have Preparation available too, though more for the heal at this stage). Did several MP9 runs & survived fairly well; certain Elite affixes still cause problems, though I suppose that's unavoidable.

Actually bought a new Nats cloak for 2 million gold w/ 1.32 Hatred regeneration, but haven't made the switch yet... it has less Dex, 2 less Discipline, and no Vitality compared w/ my current cloak, and I seem to be doing ok w/ the Hatred so far & thus don't want to hassle w/ the un-socketing of my gems. Maybe if I'm in a team game & have to lose the Templar & start noticing Hatred problems, I'll make the switch then. Also bidding on a new DML that switches out 14% Hungering Arrow damage for 7% Rapid Fire CC... :-)

Thank you again @ecocd for the thorough analysis & break down on the new & improved Rapid Fire! btw, to add to @collect3825's answer: I'm using Marked for Death - Valley of Death too, & it seems to be working out pretty well; in part cause my Templar is wielding an Azurewrath (13.6 freeze) & a Star of Azkaranth (3.9% immobilize).

Posted by ecocd at 04/19/2013 08:22 AM

Pew Pew Pew! I only have Hatred Regen on my Bat, Templar and Quiver and it's easily enough to keep up Rapid Fire for a looooong time with a 1.5 aps Manticore. Even the Windforce is easy to keep up at 1.74 aps (but the knockback is still crap so Manticore is still the way to go). I'm wondering with hatred regen on my cloak if I could even run a 1H XBow.

Anyway, get out your Dex/CC/CD gear and give it a try. It's pretty awesome.


Oh yeah, I have a friend IRL who has been using Rapid Fire for awhile now w/ a 1H XBow (Calamity), and he seems to be doing fine in the Hatred department, even with his super high attack speed (he's close to 3 APS, I believe, with a 69% IAS bonus from gear). And he doesn't even have Hatred regeneration on his armor either. When I asked him about it, he said on the rare occasion when he starts to run low on Hatred, the high APS from Hungering Arrow quickly fills him back to max. You can see his stats here...
Posted by Member nuhertz on 7/29/13 09:30 PM #20
Posts: 512

@eastdragon42 I can't do a chest anymore with no vit. It can roll 300 and sockets, probably one of the best EHP slots in the game!
Posted by Member eastdragon42 on 7/30/13 12:37 AM #21
Posts: 413

Posted by nuhertz at 07/29/2013 09:30 PM

@eastdragon42 I can't do a chest anymore with no vit. It can roll 300 and sockets, probably one of the best EHP slots in the game!


I hear you. Unfortunately though, if I want to stick with the 4-pc Natalya's set for the set bonus, then I don't have much of a choice; the cloak only has two random properties, and (in this case) I would want both properties to be Maximum Discipline and Hatred Regeneration...meaning no room for Vitality... :-0
Posted by Member eastdragon42 on 1/25/15 10:01 PM #22
Posts: 413

After obtaining an Ancient Legendary Wojahnni Assaulter with over 3k DPS & its bonus to Rapid Fire, I decided to try returning to this old build to see how it would fare in Grifts compared with 6-pc Marauder builds. Since the 4-pc & 6-pc Marauders bonuses are pointless with Rapid Fire (indeed, I'm quite sad that the 6-pc bonus doesn't give you 100% bonus damage with Rapid Fire. You'd think that as a channeling, high-cost Hatred spender, Rapid Fire would at least get a little bit of love from Blizzard with the 6-pc bonus, especially since it's impossible to give it much love at the 4-pc level...), that meant I was free to use other equipment, such as The Shadow's Mantle set -- which, since Shadow Power [Gloom] was an integral part of the original Rapid Fire build anyway, seemed fairly good (as the 4-pc bonus gives you every rune of Shadow Power at the same time). I was able to get a very good paper-DPS of around 2.5 million, had a very high Toughness score (especially when Shadow Power was activated), & could even use an extra passive slot for damage boosting since The Shadow's Mantle's 2-pc bonus inherently has the "Awareness" Passive built in. Thought it might actually be feasible.

Boy was I wrong. :-( Seems like it was impossible to kill anything w/ any decent speed even at Grifts around level 30. Indeed, during the Grift Trials, I was usually getting keystones in the level 25-28 range, compared to 30+ range w/ 6-pc Marauders (for which my paper DPS was only around 1.2 million)... So much for theory crafting.

Has anyone had any luck doing non-Marauder end-game builds w/ a DH? Or even gotten Rapid Fire to work in the most recent patches? Just curious....

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6 users posted in this thread: collect3825, douvinsky, eastdragon42, ecocd, Khan, nuhertz

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